Post by Tathrin on Mar 1, 2013 2:07:36 GMT -8
I'm not sure if this belongs here or in Potter Era, since it's a question about events before the books leading directly into events that take place during the books, so...I'm putting it here. Unless you all disagree.
Anyway, the question: do you think Lucius Malfoy knew that Peter Pettigrew was the Potter's Secret Keeper, rather than Sirius Black (and thus knew that he was Voldemort's spy in the Order)?
The evidence is ambiguous and even a little contradictory. Without swamping you all with multitudes of detail, here's what I've basically boiled it down to:
NO - Because Draco wouldn't have tried to convince Harry to go hunt down Sirius (and get himself killed) for betraying Lily and James if Draco had known that Sirius was actually on Harry's side all along (unless daddy didn't tell him that secret detail, or maybe Draco was just hoping that Harry would get in trouble trying to sneak out of school and/or attack Sirius without warning before he figured out the truth).
YES - Because Sirius says that if the Death Eaters who aren't in Azkaban (Lucius arguably being the most influential and dangerous of that lot) found out that Peter wasn't dead, they'd hunt him down (despite the fact that we've seen evidence that Lucius's loyalties stop at risking his neck for no reward, but Sirius doesn't necessarily know that, and Lucius might want to kill Peter just for screwing everything up if he thought he could get away with it).
NO - Because at Karkaoff's trial he says that none of the Death Eaters knew everyone's identities, except for Voldemort (although if Peter's wasn't well-known he probably wouldn't have had to hide for twelve years as a rat, but maybe he was just being cautious; all it takes is one).
YES - Because no one (including Lucius) acts surprised to see Peter at the graveyard when Voldemort summons them (although that could just be because Pettigrew was of low import compared to the Return of the Dark Lord, and also because they didn't want to show surprise at ANYthing with Voldemort standing right there and all their "friends" watching too).
NO - Because Snape clearly doesn't, or he'd want Peter dead for betraying Lily. Even if he decided he wanted Sirius to still take the blame because he hates him so much, he would still want the man responsible for Lily's death dead, too; he'd have been just as desperate to catch Peter as Sirius and Remus were, although if he had managed to find him he might have disposed of the body and still turned Sirius in -- but that's neither here nor there. Snape certainly did not know that Peter was Voldemort's spy in the Order. (Which does not necessarily mean that Lucius didn't know, of course...but Snape is one of Voldemort's most trusted, so why wouldn't he know, if the others did?)
YES - Because Sirius has heard his fellow prisoners cursing Peter's name in their cells and promising vengeance in their mad dreams, so obviously they know exactly who gave Voldemort the info on the Potters (although they could have learned that because of Sirius's mad ranting under the influence of the dementors, or maybe Bella knew because she's the Dark Lord's favorite, etc. Just because something is common knowledge in Azkaban doesn't mean it's known outside, too).
NO - Because Karkaoff, or any Death Eater like him, who knew that Sirius was innocent would have happily bargained that bit of information away to the Ministry in order to save his own skin; if Lucius knew, isn't it likely that he would have told? (Unless he didn't need to in order to squirm out of trouble, and perhaps was amused at the idea of one of the Order members rotting in prison like his friends; or because he worried that telling such a vital secret would be too risky, people wondering why he knows; or because he didn't have any proof the Ministry would believe, so why try and convince them of anything for the sake of a corpse and a disowned cousin-in-law -- no gain for Lucius.)
You can see why that's a hard one to puzzle out. It's a question that I've wondered about idly ever since reading GoF (because the Death Eaters lack of reaction to Peter's presence in the graveyard seemed to contradict Sirius's statement about why Peter spent twelve years hiding), but now I'm in the middle of a fanfiction story to which this issue is pretty crucial. So I'm hoping that someone has maybe spotted out an answer that I missed. At the least, I'd love to have your opinions on the issue. Thanks!
Anyway, the question: do you think Lucius Malfoy knew that Peter Pettigrew was the Potter's Secret Keeper, rather than Sirius Black (and thus knew that he was Voldemort's spy in the Order)?
The evidence is ambiguous and even a little contradictory. Without swamping you all with multitudes of detail, here's what I've basically boiled it down to:
NO - Because Draco wouldn't have tried to convince Harry to go hunt down Sirius (and get himself killed) for betraying Lily and James if Draco had known that Sirius was actually on Harry's side all along (unless daddy didn't tell him that secret detail, or maybe Draco was just hoping that Harry would get in trouble trying to sneak out of school and/or attack Sirius without warning before he figured out the truth).
YES - Because Sirius says that if the Death Eaters who aren't in Azkaban (Lucius arguably being the most influential and dangerous of that lot) found out that Peter wasn't dead, they'd hunt him down (despite the fact that we've seen evidence that Lucius's loyalties stop at risking his neck for no reward, but Sirius doesn't necessarily know that, and Lucius might want to kill Peter just for screwing everything up if he thought he could get away with it).
NO - Because at Karkaoff's trial he says that none of the Death Eaters knew everyone's identities, except for Voldemort (although if Peter's wasn't well-known he probably wouldn't have had to hide for twelve years as a rat, but maybe he was just being cautious; all it takes is one).
YES - Because no one (including Lucius) acts surprised to see Peter at the graveyard when Voldemort summons them (although that could just be because Pettigrew was of low import compared to the Return of the Dark Lord, and also because they didn't want to show surprise at ANYthing with Voldemort standing right there and all their "friends" watching too).
NO - Because Snape clearly doesn't, or he'd want Peter dead for betraying Lily. Even if he decided he wanted Sirius to still take the blame because he hates him so much, he would still want the man responsible for Lily's death dead, too; he'd have been just as desperate to catch Peter as Sirius and Remus were, although if he had managed to find him he might have disposed of the body and still turned Sirius in -- but that's neither here nor there. Snape certainly did not know that Peter was Voldemort's spy in the Order. (Which does not necessarily mean that Lucius didn't know, of course...but Snape is one of Voldemort's most trusted, so why wouldn't he know, if the others did?)
YES - Because Sirius has heard his fellow prisoners cursing Peter's name in their cells and promising vengeance in their mad dreams, so obviously they know exactly who gave Voldemort the info on the Potters (although they could have learned that because of Sirius's mad ranting under the influence of the dementors, or maybe Bella knew because she's the Dark Lord's favorite, etc. Just because something is common knowledge in Azkaban doesn't mean it's known outside, too).
NO - Because Karkaoff, or any Death Eater like him, who knew that Sirius was innocent would have happily bargained that bit of information away to the Ministry in order to save his own skin; if Lucius knew, isn't it likely that he would have told? (Unless he didn't need to in order to squirm out of trouble, and perhaps was amused at the idea of one of the Order members rotting in prison like his friends; or because he worried that telling such a vital secret would be too risky, people wondering why he knows; or because he didn't have any proof the Ministry would believe, so why try and convince them of anything for the sake of a corpse and a disowned cousin-in-law -- no gain for Lucius.)
You can see why that's a hard one to puzzle out. It's a question that I've wondered about idly ever since reading GoF (because the Death Eaters lack of reaction to Peter's presence in the graveyard seemed to contradict Sirius's statement about why Peter spent twelve years hiding), but now I'm in the middle of a fanfiction story to which this issue is pretty crucial. So I'm hoping that someone has maybe spotted out an answer that I missed. At the least, I'd love to have your opinions on the issue. Thanks!